Discuss RA1/APB units VS TD/TSR units in W3D

[ganein14]

I'd love to someday see an APB/Reborn crossover. GDI Mammoth MK II and disrupters vs. Soviet Mammoth tanks and V2 anyone? Or Nod stealth tanks vs. Allied Phase Tanks?

Edited February 10, 2016 by ganein14

[GeneralCamo]

How about Cyborg Commando vs. Technicians?

[SarahNautili]

eh, terrible, especially with this game's netcode.

[moonsense715]

How about Cyborg Commando vs. Technicians?

It's already ingame and you know it.

[ganein14]

How about Cyborg Commando vs. Tanya?

Fixed

[ChopBam]

 

How about Cyborg Commando vs. Technicians?

It's already ingame and you know it.

I think that's the point.

[Ice]

How about Cyborg Commando vs. Technicians?

^ Realistically, a fight between a Soviet Mammoth and a GDI Mammoth might as well be this, since it'd be like putting an old Pershing tank against an M1A2 Abrams

[devilslayersbane]

 

How about Cyborg Commando vs. Technicians?

^ Realistically, a fight between a Soviet Mammoth and a GDI Mammoth might as well be this, since it'd be like putting an old Pershing tank against an M1A2 Abrams

 

Well, that all depends. Yes the Soviet Mammoth's self-repair systems weren't entirely finished upon production, but after GWWII, the only major changes that would have been done by GDI's engineers would be with the FCS, repair systems and engines. In all actuality, the Soviet Mammoth may not be able to win one-on-one, but it'd put up a fair fight. An experienced crew would be able to probably take down the GDI mammoth.

[SarahNautili]

Nah, there's no way the GDI Mammoth would have gone decades without some changes/improvements somewhere to its ammo or armor layout.

 

Soviet Mammoth wouldn't realistically stand a chance. It'd likely do some damage before it went down, though.

[Ice]

^ Indeed. It's pretty safe to say that anything from RA1 would generally fare very poorly against its equivalent from Tib Dawn, and would be little more than practice targets for the weapon systems of Tib Sun.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Ice

[devilslayersbane]

^ Indeed. It's pretty safe to say that anything from RA1 would generally fare very poorly against its equivalent from Tib Dawn, and would be little more than practice targets for the weapon systems of Tib Sun.

Except for the mechs. Literally all you'd have to do would be to run into them. Also, I'd like to point out that many of the weapons in RA were just "downgraded" variants of TD stuff (most of the time). Nod used the M16A2 and the M2 Bradley, which wouldn't really be able to do much damage to the RA era light tank (which could be a number of things, my bet is the M24). The M2 would have the armor advantage, sure, but the M24 has a 75mm cannon, compared to the Bradley's 25mm autocannon (Tbh, the M2 always felt the wrong choice for Nod, something more like the FV101 would have been a better choice for the role). The Heavy Tank would have been able to stand against GDI's Medium Tank, and the Phase Tank has the firepower advantage over the Ezekiel's Wheel. The M110 artillery was used by both the Allies and Nod. The hind is a flying tank with an arsenal big enough to take down an orca and an apache. Not only that, but the only naval asset we ever see GDI use is the Gunboat and the Carrier, both of which would be easy prey for subs. Now, the M270 MRLS would be able to ruin multiple V2's at a time (8x230mm Rockets vs 1xTactical Ballistic Missile). There's only 40ish years between Red Alert and Tiberian Dawn, and while a lot can change, it's also been 40 years since vietnam, and the US is just now trying to get rid of it's M113's and is finally getting around to replacing the M4 (orginally the CAR15). The M110 howitzer is still in use, and even the M14 see's limited use as a marksman/sniper rifle.

Nah, there's no way the GDI Mammoth would have gone decades without some changes/improvements somewhere to its ammo or armor layout.

Please see the M16, which has been the same basic weapon since it's inception during the vietnam war.

[SarahNautili]

There's a hell of a lot of difference between a gun and a tank. Let's not compare apples to oranges here, let's look at just an apples to apples comparison:

 

Look at the Abrams, which went from "just" composite armor to composite armor reinforced with depleted uranium, and had its effective protection near doubled, and went from a 105mm gun firing usually HEAT at armored targets to a 120mm gun normally using APFSDS, all within the first decade of its service. And just that APFSDS shell has gone through several revisions, with each iteration increasing penetration power.

[devilslayersbane]

You're entirely right, however these changes aren't reflected in the TD universe. The M1 Abrams in TD uses a 105mm cannon, and according to the game manual for RA, the medium tank there also sports a 105mm cannon (I'm aware the files say 90mm, however that may have just been to separate them in the filing systems). There's no talk of any TUSK armor being used in TD, or ERA armor for the bradley's. Such technologies would give the TD armies a fairly decisive advantage of the RA armies. However, I doubt there was much of a need for such technologies until the first tiberium war started, simply due to the fact that GDI had the funding of the entire UN. Meanwhile Nod would have only been dealt with in COIN operations until the breakout of the war. In fact, most of the technological development between RA and TD seems to be the Mammoth's self-repair, integrating a more advanced radar in the apache, the orca, and re-inventing the wheel in an overall inferior design (I'm sorry, but I never used the stealth tank in TD). Sure the later developments seen in Renegade would have made a difference, such as giving GDI a service rifle that isn't fundamentally broken. However, it's entirely feasible that a 4 way battle between these factions as their armies stand in their respective games would be up for grabs.

[FRAYDO]

However, it's entirely feasible that a 4 way battle between these factions as their armies stand in their respective games would be up for grabs.

See: Dawn of the TIberium Age

[delta]

I think, on the larger scale of things, the Soviet-Allies war seems to be much more of a total war involving the full military strength of the countries involved. Whereas the First Tiberium War seems to be much more limited in scale, and it seems to suggest that many of the countries are hesitant about backing GDI in its fight against Nod.

[Killing_You]

RA1 seems to be a war on the scale of WW1, tactics of WWII, and Cold War era tech with some outlying weird tech. This really would be best split into a separate topic, however, as it has little to do with Delta balance.

[Einstein]

This really would be best split into a separate topic, however, as it has little to do with Delta balance.

 

Right you are.

[DeviousDave]

What I would be interested in seeing is, as the OP said, how the RA-APB units fared against TSR units.

 

so NOD + GDI vs Soviets + Allies

 

How do you think each alliance would fair on the others maps?

[Ice]

 

^ Indeed. It's pretty safe to say that anything from RA1 would generally fare very poorly against its equivalent from Tib Dawn, and would be little more than practice targets for the weapon systems of Tib Sun.

Except for the mechs. Literally all you'd have to do would be to run into them. Also, I'd like to point out that many of the weapons in RA were just "downgraded" variants of TD stuff (most of the time). Nod used the M16A2 and the M2 Bradley, which wouldn't really be able to do much damage to the RA era light tank (which could be a number of things, my bet is the M24). The M2 would have the armor advantage, sure, but the M24 has a 75mm cannon, compared to the Bradley's 25mm autocannon (Tbh, the M2 always felt the wrong choice for Nod, something more like the FV101 would have been a better choice for the role). The Heavy Tank would have been able to stand against GDI's Medium Tank, and the Phase Tank has the firepower advantage over the Ezekiel's Wheel. The M110 artillery was used by both the Allies and Nod. The hind is a flying tank with an arsenal big enough to take down an orca and an apache. Not only that, but the only naval asset we ever see GDI use is the Gunboat and the Carrier, both of which would be easy prey for subs. Now, the M270 MRLS would be able to ruin multiple V2's at a time (8x230mm Rockets vs 1xTactical Ballistic Missile). There's only 40ish years between Red Alert and Tiberian Dawn, and while a lot can change, it's also been 40 years since vietnam, and the US is just now trying to get rid of it's M113's and is finally getting around to replacing the M4 (orginally the CAR15). The M110 howitzer is still in use, and even the M14 see's limited use as a marksman/sniper rifle.

Nah, there's no way the GDI Mammoth would have gone decades without some changes/improvements somewhere to its ammo or armor layout.

Please see the M16, which has been the same basic weapon since it's inception during the vietnam war.

 

Nod uses a custom variant of the Bradley with a 75mm cannon (and the real-life Bradley has TOW missiles to fight tanks), while the real-life M16 has gone through many changes to improve its reliability and user-friendliness.

 

Now, as for RA vs TD stuff, there would be a huge number of differences and technological advances in the time between RA and TD. The closest comparison in our timeline would probably be the weapon systems of the Korean War vs. those of the Gulf War or perhaps the Iraq War. The technological advances during 45-ish years between RA and TD would be immense. Let's do some comparisons:

 

Infantry:

• Apart from the exploitation of new technologies (and perhaps a few updates to the 'rules of war'), the basic tactics of infantry would probably not have changed much. That being said, advances in technology (particularly communications/navigation equipment) would theoretically allow GDI and Nod forces to be better-coordinated and conduct operations more efficiently.
• Advances in personal body armour would afford Kevlar-equipped TD infantry better protection than their RA counterparts, who were typically just wearing WWII-era steel helmets. At best a few specialized troops might have armour similar to the heavy steel chest-pieces used during WWI and WWII.
• Improved camouflage patterns could give TD infantry an edge over their RA counterparts who were largely clad in solid-colour uniforms (olive drab, field grey, khaki, etc.), although the extent of the advantage provided is debatable.

 

Tanks:

• RA tanks were most likely using rolled homogeneous armour, while TD tanks would have composite armour.
• Tanks rounds would vary considerably between the two wars, since RA tanks would almost certainly be loaded with AP and HE rounds not unlike those used during our WWII. At best they might have HEAT rounds or maybe early versions of HESH in small quantities, while TD tanks would be equipped with a variety of specialized tank-killing rounds like APFSDS.
• The high-tech fire-control systems of TD-era tanks would be far superior to anything available in RA, which would be mostly if not entirely analog/manual. This would enable TD tanks to get their first shots off before the RA tanks have even laid onto their targets.

 

Aircraft:

• Aside from the fact that the propeller planes (Yak) used during RA would have no chance against a modern jet fighter, the massive advances in aircraft design, avionics and weapon systems over 4 decades would mean that even the Soviet MiG's would be utterly inadequate against the high-tech aircraft of GDI and Nod. Given the right conditions, even an Orca or Apache equipped with modern countermeasures and AA missiles could probably take down a MiG-23 with ease.
• Allied and Soviet helicopters of the period would stand very little chance against Nod's modernized Apache, and the sheer maneuverability of GDI's Orca would enable it to literally run circles around the old Longbows and Hinds before promptly shooting them out of the sky.

 

Space Assets:

• Even without their Ion Cannon, GDI would still have an overwhelming advantage in communications and reconnaissance capabilities thanks to their large network of high-tech satellites, compared to the limited capabilities of the very few prototype satellites that were launched in RA (those that didn't suffer failures during launch/orbit, that is).

 

Stealth Technology:

• Nod's developments in stealth technology would give them a tremendous advantage, allowing them to ambush enemy forces with ease and hide their forces from Allied/Soviet reconnaissance efforts. Since the Stealth Tank is high-undetectable to all but GDI's most advanced sensors, it's pretty safe to assume that it would be totally undetectable to the relatively primitive sensory equipment available during GWWII. Even the Phase Transport/Tank, which only reached the prototype stages during the war, would be totally outclassed by the Stealth Tank. Ironically, the Stealth Tank, being a very advanced weapon system, is itself probably equipped with advanced sensors and could very well be employed to hunt Phase Tanks.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ice

[ganein14]

 

Stealth Technology:

• Nod's developments in stealth technology would give them a tremendous advantage, allowing them to ambush enemy forces with ease and hide their forces from Allied/Soviet reconnaissance efforts. Since the Stealth Tank is high-undetectable to all but GDI's most advanced sensors, it's pretty safe to assume that it would be totally undetectable to the relatively primitive sensory equipment available during GWWII. Even the Phase Transport/Tank, which only reached the prototype stages during the war, would be totally outclassed by the Stealth Tank. Ironically, the Stealth Tank, being a very advanced weapon system, is itself probably equipped with advanced sensors and could very well be employed to hunt Phase Tanks.

Last I checked, TD guard towers could detect AND reveal Nod's stealth tanks.

[Killing_You]

I'd chalk that up to game balance or engine limitations. Lorewise, GDI probably wouldn't have sensors that advanced in your average base defense until Tiberian Sun, where they were made mandatory for obvious reasons.

[Ice]

I'd chalk that up to game balance or engine limitations. Lorewise, GDI probably wouldn't have sensors that advanced in your average base defense until Tiberian Sun, where they were made mandatory for obvious reasons.

Indeed. Although it's likely that, realizing the threat of Stealth Tanks, GDI quickly prioritized the equipping of their base defenses with advanced sensors so that, by the end of the war, the majority of guard towers would have them installed in some form or another. Given GDI's initial budget and the sheer amount of resources they have access to (not to mention a supposedly far more efficient command structure than any present-day military), it's possible that such an initiative may have already been well underway.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ice

[ganein14]

And I guess infantry would be smart enough to waste ammo on flickering lights that moved around and was followed by the sound of an engine?

[Killing_You]

 

I'd chalk that up to game balance or engine limitations. Lorewise, GDI probably wouldn't have sensors that advanced in your average base defense until Tiberian Sun, where they were made mandatory for obvious reasons.

Indeed. Although it's likely that, realizing the threat of Stealth Tanks, GDI quickly prioritized the equipping of their base defenses with advanced sensors so that, by the end of the war, the majority of guard towers would have them installed in some form or another.

 

That's fair.

 

 

And I guess infantry would be smart enough to waste ammo on flickering lights that moved around and was followed by the sound of an engine?

Probably later on. When Stealth Tanks were first deployed, I'd imagine someone walking past one would be thinking "What the hell was that?" rather than "Probably a Nod stealth tank. Imma shoot it to be sure!" Then again, I think most Stealth Tank drivers would be smart enough to avoid getting that close to infantry.

[ganein14]

True, unless said soldier was alone or they were very tightly grouped and all of them were flattened.

[Killing_You]

If the goal was to turn them into pancakes, I think their reaction time would still be used up by that "What the hell" moment. Although props to the few who do take a few shots, especially if they manage to do some damage.

[Ice]

 

 

I'd chalk that up to game balance or engine limitations. Lorewise, GDI probably wouldn't have sensors that advanced in your average base defense until Tiberian Sun, where they were made mandatory for obvious reasons.

Indeed. Although it's likely that, realizing the threat of Stealth Tanks, GDI quickly prioritized the equipping of their base defenses with advanced sensors so that, by the end of the war, the majority of guard towers would have them installed in some form or another.

 

That's fair.

 

 

And I guess infantry would be smart enough to waste ammo on flickering lights that moved around and was followed by the sound of an engine?

Probably later on. When Stealth Tanks were first deployed, I'd imagine someone walking past one would be thinking "What the hell was that?" rather than "Probably a Nod stealth tank. Imma shoot it to be sure!" Then again, I think most Stealth Tank drivers would be smart enough to avoid getting that close to infantry.

 

Yeah. As shown in cutscenes, a stealth tank would appear to the naked eye as a barely-visible blob of distortion, similar to the wavy distortions seen on hot days. Of course, you'd need a keen eye to really notice these without knowledge of Stealth Tanks beforehand, but it still explains how infantry detected them in-game. Plus anyone who's a fan of science fiction would probably automatically be suspicious upon noticing a strange anomaly like that.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Ice

[delta]

I think it's not that hard to imagine that optical camouflage, while effective at medium to long distances, might be considerably less so at point-blank range. So you might not need any special sensors if there's a stealth tank parked right next to you...you can probably hear it too.

[devilslayersbane]

 

 

 

^ Indeed. It's pretty safe to say that anything from RA1 would generally fare very poorly against its equivalent from Tib Dawn, and would be little more than practice targets for the weapon systems of Tib Sun.

Except for the mechs. Literally all you'd have to do would be to run into them. Also, I'd like to point out that many of the weapons in RA were just "downgraded" variants of TD stuff (most of the time). Nod used the M16A2 and the M2 Bradley, which wouldn't really be able to do much damage to the RA era light tank (which could be a number of things, my bet is the M24). The M2 would have the armor advantage, sure, but the M24 has a 75mm cannon, compared to the Bradley's 25mm autocannon (Tbh, the M2 always felt the wrong choice for Nod, something more like the FV101 would have been a better choice for the role). The Heavy Tank would have been able to stand against GDI's Medium Tank, and the Phase Tank has the firepower advantage over the Ezekiel's Wheel. The M110 artillery was used by both the Allies and Nod. The hind is a flying tank with an arsenal big enough to take down an orca and an apache. Not only that, but the only naval asset we ever see GDI use is the Gunboat and the Carrier, both of which would be easy prey for subs. Now, the M270 MRLS would be able to ruin multiple V2's at a time (8x230mm Rockets vs 1xTactical Ballistic Missile). There's only 40ish years between Red Alert and Tiberian Dawn, and while a lot can change, it's also been 40 years since vietnam, and the US is just now trying to get rid of it's M113's and is finally getting around to replacing the M4 (orginally the CAR15). The M110 howitzer is still in use, and even the M14 see's limited use as a marksman/sniper rifle.

Nah, there's no way the GDI Mammoth would have gone decades without some changes/improvements somewhere to its ammo or armor layout.

Please see the M16, which has been the same basic weapon since it's inception during the vietnam war.

 

Nod uses a custom variant of the Bradley with a 75mm cannon (and the real-life Bradley has TOW missiles to fight tanks), while the real-life M16 has gone through many changes to improve its reliability and user-friendliness.

Ok, I'll ignore the renders for now.

 

Now, as for RA vs TD stuff, there would be a huge number of differences and technological advances in the time between RA and TD. The closest comparison in our timeline would probably be the weapon systems of the Korean War vs. those of the Gulf War or perhaps the Iraq War. The technological advances during 45-ish years between RA and TD would be immense. Let's do some comparisons:

Which is highlighted by armies and forces who can have a modern army running on it's heels with Korean War era tech. That's a great comparison. Thanks!

 

Infantry:

• Apart from the exploitation of new technologies (and perhaps a few updates to the 'rules of war'), the basic tactics of infantry would probably not have changed much. That being said, advances in technology (particularly communications/navigation equipment) would theoretically allow GDI and Nod forces to be better-coordinated and conduct operations more efficiently.
• This is mostly true, and there's not much I can say about this.
• Advances in personal body armour would afford Kevlar-equipped TD infantry better protection than their RA counterparts, who were typically just wearing WWII-era steel helmets. At best a few specialized troops might have armour similar to the heavy steel chest-pieces used during WWI and WWII.
• This advantage is debatable. Smart tactics and commanders can easily nullify any advantage this gives. Plus the fact that GDI's GAU-3 is based off of a fundamentally broken weapon design means that GDI troops would experience plenty of weapon jams.
• Improved camouflage patterns could give TD infantry an edge over their RA counterparts who were largely clad in solid-colour uniforms (olive drab, field grey, khaki, etc.), although the extent of the advantage provided is debatable.
• Like it has already been stated, this is a debatable advantage.

 

Tanks:

• RA tanks were most likely using rolled homogeneous armour, while TD tanks would have composite armour.
• This means that RA tanks would be considerably cheaper and faster in most instances. The tank in which this would mean the most is the Mammoth, which, no matter how hard you try will never be able to have the surprise advantage. Also, the Heavy Tank has some early Composite Armor plating, which while it would most likely be inferior would help to mitigate any armor advantage.
• Tanks rounds would vary considerably between the two wars, since RA tanks would almost certainly be loaded with AP and HE rounds not unlike those used during our WWII. At best they might have HEAT rounds or maybe early versions of HESH in small quantities, while TD tanks would be equipped with a variety of specialized tank-killing rounds like APFSDS.
• Again, this ties into the cheaper category, meaning that the Allies and Soviets would be able to put more units on the field. Also, you have to remember that a drop of RA ore is probably a quarter of the value of TD Tib. Meaning that if the Allies and soviets capture or reverse-engineered the Tiberium refinery, they would have a vastly more numerous arsenal
• The high-tech fire-control systems of TD-era tanks would be far superior to anything available in RA, which would be mostly if not entirely analog/manual. This would enable TD tanks to get their first shots off before the RA tanks have even laid onto their targets.
• This is true. But the RA tanks would, as I stated, most likely be faster than their TD counterparts. This also wouldn't mean anything against Infantry supported Tanks or in Urban environments.

 

Aircraft:

• Aside from the fact that the propeller planes (Yak) used during RA would have no chance against a modern jet fighter, the massive advances in aircraft design, avionics and weapon systems over 4 decades would mean that even the Soviet MiG's would be utterly inadequate against the high-tech aircraft of GDI and Nod. Given the right conditions, even an Orca or Apache equipped with modern countermeasures and AA missiles could probably take down a MiG-23 with ease.
• Considering the fact that even the Soviet Union only uses the Yak in a CAS role, the MiG (and any variants of it) would most likely be the only Aircraft equipped for any type of Combat Air Patrol.
• Allied and Soviet helicopters of the period would stand very little chance against Nod's modernized Apache, and the sheer maneuverability of GDI's Orca would enable it to literally run circles around the old Longbows and Hinds before promptly shooting them out of the sky.
• This is relatively dishonest. The fragile nature of the Orca would mean that most contact with enemy helicopters (especially those running on more conventional rotors) would spell instant death. Not to mention the fact that even if it did run circles around the Longbow and the Hind, it means nothing if it can't get a shot off. The Orca is a single-seat support VTOL. All of it's guns are forward facing and the pilot cannot change that. The Longbow and Apache are both going to be somewhat evenly matched, as very little changed from their spans of time (The Apache was already outdated and only a few changes were made due to the Orca and was limited to CAS by Nod). The Hind, however, is literally unmatched. It's not as fast as any of it's contemporary's listed here but it has the armor to compensate. It's arsenal is vastly superior to any of the other with multiple rocket pods, bombs and wire-guided missles. The Yak-B would literally shred the Apache or Orca due to its high ammo capacity and rate of fire.

 

Space Assets:

• Even without their Ion Cannon, GDI would still have an overwhelming advantage in communications and reconnaissance capabilities thanks to their large network of high-tech satellites, compared to the limited capabilities of the very few prototype satellites that were launched in RA (those that didn't suffer failures during launch/orbit, that is).
• I have no response to this. Though, I will say that GDI must have had some serious communication issues because their commanders never seemed to know the landscape well enough.

 

Stealth Technology:

• Nod's developments in stealth technology would give them a tremendous advantage, allowing them to ambush enemy forces with ease and hide their forces from Allied/Soviet reconnaissance efforts. Since the Stealth Tank is high-undetectable to all but GDI's most advanced sensors, it's pretty safe to assume that it would be totally undetectable to the relatively primitive sensory equipment available during GWWII. Even the Phase Transport/Tank, which only reached the prototype stages during the war, would be totally outclassed by the Stealth Tank. Ironically, the Stealth Tank, being a very advanced weapon system, is itself probably equipped with advanced sensors and could very well be employed to hunt Phase Tanks.
• This doesn't take away the fact that the phase tank has a superior firepower, and infantry carrying support.

 

 

[dblaney1]

Our mod ImperialAge has quite a bit of units from all three games, and a few from Red Alert 2 as well.

 

For info on how to play see this thread.

https://secure.w3dhub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=415501