W3D vs UDK

[Einstein]

A game that's almost 20 years old.

 

It is 20 now :

[Synaesthesia]

Wolf, I get your point about attracting new players, but there is a huge audience who are more interested in gameplay than graphics

 

I've just started learning W3D and for whatever weird reason, I love it and i wouldn't swap to UDK now even if it is easier.

 

"huge audience that are more interested in gameplay than graphics"

 

I keep hearing this oversimplification of video game development and I rarely if ever see any proof provided. It's been a constant thread in gaming society for many years. "Gameplay > graphics"

 

It's not a zero-sum game. You can have great graphics and great gameplay. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a perfect example of this. When you can have both gameplay and graphics, why settle for less? This is possible even in modding communities like this one. You find talent and groom it to create competitive art that can stand up against other mods and other games. There's no excuse for not having gameplay and graphics anymore.

[Guest rackz]

due the engine facts, if Fjords would use the same texture sizes of renegade would it run fine on older pc´s? would that make a big change? after using the graphics mod i would prefer using small textures but maps with plenty objects since w3d can handle many polys but not big textures. reborn will use the gfx mod i have uploaded, so what are the future graphic plans? are there even graphic plans? i would like to see new physics more than everything else.

Edited January 31, 2015 by rackz

[Sentry]

Better is to finish this mod on renegade's basic.. after this project you can think about to change to UDK.. just in remind, it will need a completly rework, in models and textures, scripts and codings.. so it will take a while again until a playable release is playable.. and it is also not sure if RenX will give out their scripting works and other stuff, cause thats their creation and honestly i would also not be that happy to give out my hard work to a other mod.. so this isnt sure if you can take some codings from them or you have to copletly do your own codings..

 

ofcourse the w3d engine is old, and many new engines are really good now.. but you have to uodate your computer, and most new games are so complicated and mixed with reality that its not doing fun to play.. in renegade/reborn, you can spawn, choose your unit, buy your unit, run, jump and shoot... in other games you cant run alltime cause of "realistics" and so on..

 

 

just keep in mind, this mod is still alive... other mods died, tiberian aftermath for BF vietnam as example.. tiberian eclipse.. or whats about tiberian sun rising, looks also dead, no more news on moddb.. many hours, days, weeks, months and years hard work on reborn mod... finish this one, would not be fair for other reborn members or ex members if it will be canceled for a other engine.. i think those real reborn mod fans will play this mod, and maybe some other ppl that see this mod from friends or over internet.

[GeneralCamo]

I honestly think this should be brought to a new topic, rather than continue to ramble on here. I see some great discussion coming from this, just not here where it will get buried in the (hopefully) many updates.

[Wallywood]

I honestly think this should be brought to a new topic, rather than continue to ramble on here. I see some great discussion coming from this, just not here where it will get buried in the (hopefully) many updates.

Plus one

[Shnappz]

 

Wolf, I get your point about attracting new players, but there is a huge audience who are more interested in gameplay than graphics

 

I've just started learning W3D and for whatever weird reason, I love it and i wouldn't swap to UDK now even if it is easier.

 

"huge audience that are more interested in gameplay than graphics"

 

I keep hearing this oversimplification of video game development and I rarely if ever see any proof provided. It's been a constant thread in gaming society for many years. "Gameplay > graphics"

 

It's not a zero-sum game. You can have great graphics and great gameplay. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a perfect example of this. When you can have both gameplay and graphics, why settle for less? This is possible even in modding communities like this one. You find talent and groom it to create competitive art that can stand up against other mods and other games. There's no excuse for not having gameplay and graphics anymore.

 

Sorry mate? When did i say gameplay was more important? Someone's gone off on a tangent and not really read my post 8-).

 

I said there is a huge audience who are MORE INTERESTED in game play... evidenced by the people that play APB and TSR and the thousands of retro gaming communities. I even play my mega drive more than i play my X-Box. You've seriously missed the point.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Shnappz

[Synaesthesia]

You basically said "gameplay > graphics because Deus Ex was amazing and looks like shit"

What you failed to mention was that Deus Ex looked amazing for its time, because it was a top of the line game when it came out in 2000. Deus Ex had great graphics and gameplay for its time, and the gameplay still holds up. The graphics, not so much. I addressed what you wrote - there was no tangent.

[Shnappz]

That's not what i'm saying.. i'm saying that i play it even now and happily overlook how dated the graphics look. Just like with APB and TSR.

 

I actually prefer playing dated games than newer FPS games like COD, Battlefield, FarCry etc...

[moonsense715]

Subjective opinion: all the realistic detail that I see in today's fancypants FPS games are irritating to me as it draws my attention away from the actual gameplay. To a point where I keep missing enemies passing by!

 

I understand how that's good in sneaking games (because you die from a bullet in your shoulder) but in a strategy game from an fps perspective (Renegade X), I feel like a damn useless unit from the nonexistant commander's point of view who is just looking at the environment instead of 100% focusing on the objective.

 

tl;dr: I don't like all the distracting "realistic" detail in new games, they barely feel like games anymore to me. If I want to see realistic stuff I go on a damn trip.

[Shnappz]

Subjective opinion: all the realistic detail that I see in today's fancypants FPS games are irritating to me as it draws my attention away from the actual gameplay. To a point where I keep missing enemies passing by!

 

I understand how that's good in sneaking games (because you die from a bullet in your shoulder) but in a strategy game from an fps perspective (Renegade X), I feel like a damn useless unit from the nonexistant commander's point of view who is just looking at the environment instead of 100% focusing on the objective.

 

tl;dr: I don't like all the distracting "realistic" detail in new games, they barely feel like games anymore to me. If I want to see realistic stuff I go on a damn trip.

 

Hit the nail on the head...

 

I swear to god, sometimes my eyes hurt so bad from playing Call of Duty just trying to pick out enemies in the ridiculously detailed enviroments.

[Einstein]

I don't know if this situation for me will improve when I get glasses, but for now, I tend to agree. Now don't get me wrong, I love great graphics! The new tomb raider? WOOO! lol thats cool && big GPU required but in a shooter, it is possible to have...well...too much pretty scenery (?) i guess is what i'm trying to say

[Shnappz]

that's the oither thing, we don't all have super computers (i might do after Einstein helps me build mine) but at the moment, Ren-X, Deus Ex - Human Revolution etc etc just wont run on my PC.

Even if they did, i'm sure i'd still play APB & TSR more.

[Garrus09]

 

Subjective opinion: all the realistic detail that I see in today's fancypants FPS games are irritating to me as it draws my attention away from the actual gameplay. To a point where I keep missing enemies passing by!

 

I understand how that's good in sneaking games (because you die from a bullet in your shoulder) but in a strategy game from an fps perspective (Renegade X), I feel like a damn useless unit from the nonexistant commander's point of view who is just looking at the environment instead of 100% focusing on the objective.

 

tl;dr: I don't like all the distracting "realistic" detail in new games, they barely feel like games anymore to me. If I want to see realistic stuff I go on a damn trip.

 

Hit the nail on the head...

 

I swear to god, sometimes my eyes hurt so bad from playing Call of Duty just trying to pick out enemies in the ridiculously detailed enviroments.

 

Might also be because the FoV is so small

[Guest rackz]

garrus is right.

 

a lower fov on w3d makes actually look maps less empty and the tiling of the textures is less noticable

[madrox8]

i highly doubt that is what he ment

[Synaesthesia]

UDK

Pros:

It's free

It runs on most hardware if you've packed your projects correctly

Enormous community behind it that leads to a vastly larger potential for players to play this

Large amount of artists that could be recruited to work on one of these projects

Tons of tutorials and advice abound

Cons:

People refuse to work with it because change is difficult

It would need modifying to match up with C&C Mode gameplay

There's a learning curve

Etc

W3D

Pros:

It's free through some nebulous idea that EA somehow endorses having one of their engines distributed without written consent

It already has C&C Mode

Cons:

Just about everything. It's old, dated, lag-ridden, there's no source code, no method of modifying the engine besides hex editing and scripts, and as Windows continues to progress to new versions there's no guarantee that Renegade will continue to work anymore

[Wallywood]

[Synaesthesia]

That is a valid point

It's entirely possible to bake down diffuse textures in xNormal for lower quality models in Renegade, while you can still develop high quality models for UDK and beyond

[moonsense715]

That is a valid point

 

It's entirely possible to bake down diffuse textures in xNormal for lower quality models in Renegade, while you can still develop high quality models for UDK and beyond

We actually tried to do this 3 years ago, the project died quite fast.

But as for source code as far as I know Tiberian Technologies do have it, which is why they could make rendering improvements, changing a lot of ground-basic behaviour, a buttload of new features that we can now use, removing hardcoded texture names, customizing the game further and so on.

[Killing_You]

Some of us have other plans for UDK once everything is put in place.

[sterps]

I enjoy Renegade X, more so than the original Renegade. As a frequent player, i sometimes find myself thinking, it would be really awesome to see these W3D mod communities create their mods on UDK.

 

The benefits of developing on UDK far out way the cons.

You can attract a larger player base, attracting old and new players alike. Totem arts plan on releasing RenX on steam once the game is at stable and balanced state. When this happens, the potential for an increased player base is likely.

There are more developers for UDK than W3D, so chances are you could have a larger team to develop a mod. I know RenX is planning on releasing map tools in the Beta 4, and i'm sure i recall reading on their forums, they're open to other mods using RenX to mod from.

You can take advantage of a superior engine to great effect, more so than you would be able to achieve using W3D. Imagine reborn with better physics and mechanics you could gain from utilising UDK.

It's also visually more appealing. I prefer gameplay over graphics, but if you can have great game play with awesome graphics, why not?

As much as some of the developers here enjoy modding on W3D, i'm sure when they release their mod, or patches, they'd like to see it played by many players, rather than a few players.

[danpaul88]

Do steam even allow you to ship games for free? They certainly can't charge money for RenX since it is built on EA intellectual property... and given that EA already refuse to put the C&C franchise on Steam I wouldn't be surprised if they would block any effort to put even a free game based on C&C onto Steam.

[Guest rackz]

hell the renegade x character and vehicle movements are TOTALLY crap. i cant define it in other words. and i know many peoples that agree. if this wont get changed i wont play it. the next incomming maps look incredible, but still i wont play them.

[moonsense715]

If I ever get involved in moving any of these games to a newer engine you can be sure it will be UE4 and not UDK.

[Enduar]

My thoughts exactly. I've spent the last couple of years poking around the different engines and have seen a lot of work, and talked to a lot of people who've worked them. W3D, Source, Cryengine, UDK, Unity, ARMA, etc.

All of the modern engines have their own individual selling points. UDK is probably the best bet for a large community and a wealth of material, but now it is past its time. Cryengine is attractive for it's graphics and sheer power. Unity seemed to be one of the more user-friendly ones, kind of a mid-grade that found a good balance in capabilities. UDK will still see use for a while, but with UE4's release and continued development it is seeing the same community-driven atmosphere being pushed with everything they've got- the creators are well aware of what made UDK successful and are milking it for everything it's worth. When deciding what engine I'd be most likely to choose it came down to a choice between Unity, CryEngine, and UE4 and I ultimately decided on the latter because of the likelyhood that it will be extremely mutable in what it's able to accomplish (Blueprint system in particular looks excellent for projects like these with shared traits and mostly aesthetic variation). If you're going to make the switch then there's no point in not going with something that will define the next generation, not be made obsolete by it.

That said, W3D is well invested into at this point. At some point there will be a time where everyone here can say they've done all they want to do with it and smash a bottle over her bow and push her out to sea, but the change beyond that isn't something to be taken lightly. The question is, what is the ultimate goal of each individual project and the intended gain by those making it. W3D won't necessarily be a high point on a resume, but as far as a intense hobby and something to pour your soul into... Well it's already proven that aspect beyond expectation at this point.

[Jerad2142]

 

 

Why not move to UDK? W3D is dead

Welcome, are you staying around long? (honestly asking btw)

 

Depends on how much stuff there is to leak. ;D

 

W3D doesn't interest me anymore... you should contact the RenX team and see if you can get your hands on their code. This place seriously needs some UDK love. Otherwise it'll be dead on arrival.

 

Port stuff to UDK, publish some fancy ads, attract new folks and so on

 

People need to stop assuming that moving to a new engine fixes jack. Maybe no one noticed, but RenX belly flopped so hard after the first few weeks of its release. If a game is good people will play it despite the graphics, original counter strike, mine craft, etc stand testament to that. The issue most W3D games have is we have shitty advertising so no one hears about them.

 

There is also a down side to having a large community off the bat:

If your game releases with a major bug, now everyone plays your game for the first time and is imminently exposed to that, which potentially turns massive numbers of people off to ever trying it again.

 

All engines have pros and cons, some cons you don't see until you start developing on them. If these teams were slapping out a new game every year it'd make sense to switch engines, but when it takes years to complete a game there will always be something better to move to before you complete, its just better to complete one thing at a time or else you get nothing done.

 

 

 

It's free through some nebulous idea that EA somehow endorses having one of their engines distributed without written consent

 

Cons:

Just about everything. It's old, dated, lag-ridden, there's no source code, no method of modifying the engine besides hex editing and scripts, and as Windows continues to progress to new versions there's no guarantee that Renegade will continue to work anymore

 

 

ECW actually got written consent from EA, I assume Reborn and AR did as well.

 

And your cons about no source code is pretty much completely off, we have about 60% of the engine source in TT 4.2, and hook the rest, if we need more we simply reverse engineer it. Saberhawk is currently working the engine up to dx11 in TT 5.0.

 

A pro to W3D is that its scripting language is in C++ which in comparison to Unity (which uses javascript and C#) is vastly faster.

 

 

You can take advantage of a superior engine to great effect, more so than you would be able to achieve using W3D. Imagine reborn with better physics and mechanics you could gain from utilising UDK.

It's also visually more appealing. I prefer gameplay over graphics, but if you can have great game play with awesome graphics, why not?

I will admit, I was rather surprised that RenX managed to actually make vehicle handling worse than stock renegade, if that's what you mean by "with better physics."

 

 

When deciding what engine I'd be most likely to choose it came down to a choice between Unity, CryEngine, and UE4 and I ultimately decided on the latter because of the likelyhood that it will be extremely mutable in what it's able to accomplish (Blueprint system in particular looks excellent for projects like these with shared traits and mostly aesthetic variation). If you're going to make the switch then there's no point in not going with something that will define the next generation, not be made obsolete by it.

 

You should cross unity off if you want Multiplayer and players able to exit and enter vehicles, because Unity does some odd shit with how player control of network objects works. If you're the creator of the object your computer is what does the updates. This works fine if its just you playing, but if someone else gets in a vehicle your computer created, every key press they make has to go to your computer, where it controls the vehicle, and then sends the update back, which makes for painful amounts of lag. Although it is possible that they have fixed it, I haven't touched unity in 3 years now, but I rather doubt they did. I feel if ECW were to move off W3D I'd go for cry engine, as it'd likely support large open environments better than what UE3 did.

[icy187dna]

Do steam even allow you to ship games for free? They certainly can't charge money for RenX since it is built on EA intellectual property... and given that EA already refuse to put the C&C franchise on Steam I wouldn't be surprised if they would block any effort to put even a free game based on C&C onto Steam.

Valve was nearly bought out by EA for $1 billion Newell said that Valve would sooner “disintegrate” than sell out to a major publisher. So with the bitter rivals EA and Valve you can safely say that the C&C franchise will not be going out on Steam any time soon.

But if Valve bought EA out (which it could happen) then you would get the C&C franchise on Steam.

If you stick to W3D instead of UDK then yes you are limiting yourself to a type of audience. I'd just stick with the W3D and make the most of it. Yes it would be amazing for it to be on Steam....that's if WestWood was around, then it would be attracting a larger audience.

If you want to blame something blame EA for stopping the C&C franchise from being more popular.

"In 2011, Electronic Arts, or EA, released its competitor to Steam, by the moniker Origin. From the beginning, gamers didn't like it. Not only were they used to using Steam, they were skeptical of anything with EA’s name on it. Though EA’s games are popular, their business practices are not. EA is always in the running for the worst company in America by the Consumerist and even “won” in 2012, the first full year of Origin’s release. They have a reputation for mistreating their customers with invasive anti-piracy policies and greedy pricing schemes that nickel and dime people into paying for content they should have received in the first place. EA, aware that most customers would prefer to deal with Valve, decided to cease selling their new games on Steam. If people wanted to play their PC games, they’d need to play it on Origin, or not at all."

Keep up with the good work and I will support you guys all the way!

[Synaesthesia]

If Renegade's engine were a viable platform, we'd see these mods being substantially more popular than the small cult following they have. Anything based on Renegade's engine (sans RenX, although it's only moderately more successful than Renegade-based mods) doesn't even blip on the gaming community radar. Nobody develops for old engines. Minecraft isn't a 1-1 comparison because it was designed to look that way, not because they were limited to an antiquated engine that could create nothing but pixel art for their game.

I get the idea that you enjoy doing this (and I still do, to an extent) but making UDK sound like it's not superior in basically every aspect is ridiculous. Be honest with yourself: you're working on a small cult-following game to create an even smaller cult-following mod of that game. There's nothing wrong with realizing that. Just don't pretend that UDK is somehow inferior to Renegade because RenX can't get their shit together. There's more bugs in anything we've ever made for this engine than all of RenX's issues combined.

[OWA]

I think Jerad has a point with the vehicle physics. The way RenX's vehicles stack on top of each other when they collide is really stupid. The only thing I wish Renegade tanks had was proper acceleration.