A Path Beyond APB Delta Map Balance

[TeamWolf]

Re-enable !vote cyclemap ??

 

That was removed because people would rail on it too much.

[ChopBam]

What if there were some type of time-extending item that can be found in the KOTG house? Say, five minutes are left and this one-time only item is spawned inside the house for grabs. It can be picked up by anyone and five minutes is then added to the timer.

This would be moot because anybody who wanted to extend a stale game could extend a stale game.

 

 

 

Re-enable !vote cyclemap ??

That was removed because people would rail on it too much.

 

Certainly it wouldn't be impossible to make the command only available in certain situations. Perhaps past a certain elapsed time or whatever.

[SarahNautili]

maybe if either team loses a production building within the first x minutes of the match on the bigger, longer time limit maps, cut the extra time?

[Isaac The Madd]

Maybe we could have attack dogs...no really wants those do we.

[SarahNautili]

What's the balance looking like on Complex? Because personal experience is showing it to be pretty heavily Soviet biased. The beginning infantry rush and all later ones has more chance of succeeding in the soviet's favor, especially since the Allies have to cross several dozen meters in the open while the Soviets only have to make it like 5 from the tunnel into the Power Plant, and on the back side of the PP too so they're more likely to make it there unnoticed. And as soon as the first dump hits, mines make any Allied inf tunnel rushes basically moot. The soviets have a very easy V2 spam spot just on their side of the bridge, and as soon as the bridge is down the Allies have no chance to stop it before the V2's already gotten at least one shot off at the gap gen or the WF, which buys the Soviets a lot of valuable points if nothing else. Meanwhile the Allies have no such spot available to them for their arties - they can maybe hit the Barracks from their side of the bridge but it's a tough shot at best. And that V2 spam spot turns into a MAD spam spot very quickly, and with multiple MADs deployed there near simultaneously, it's pretty much guaranteed one of them is gonna go off without being destroyed, since the only effective place for anything that's not an Arty to hit most of them is from the super cramped other side of the bridge. Even if they don't manage to get the WF, Gap, and all the soviet defenses, they'll still get a lot of valuable and basically free points.

[Pushwall]

Personal experience is a funny thing. This patch it's 9 allies 2 soviets.

 

Allies can still shoot the ore silo from inside the tunnel, no need to even step out and run into mines. And an arty can easily hit both the WF and barracks from the east side of the bridge, no need to even be on it.

Also, despite someone's alarmist outcry about Allied bias on Under, that map is 2 allies 8 soviets this patch. People really need to stop making wild assumptions about map balance based on one match.

[SarahNautili]

Hrm, weird then. Color me wrong I guess.

 

Although I haven't *ever* seen anyone aim for the ore silo. It's just not as valuable a target as the PP or ref or WF. Feels like a waste of time.

[Pushwall]

You don't like cutting the enemy's income by a third on a map where they supposedly love to spam super-expensive MADs/demos? And all without having to worry about mines?

[SarahNautili]

2/3rds of "a hell of a lot" is still "a hell of a lot". That map's income is so high losing the silo is barely noticeable.

 

That and even if the allies do make a bum rush on the silo, only being able to shoot through the door limits their firepower, and a single techie making it to the other side of the silo kills the chances of it actually falling. Plus means the allies are down that many players doing anything to actually stop the V2 spam that's inevitably going on.

'course I imagine that insane income is also a lot of why the allies are winning. The demo truck spam goes both ways, and for everything else the Allies can just infinitely chain pull.

[Einstein]

It is possible to get a V2 over the hedgehogs without destroying a one of them

[Raap]

On the topic of map balance, now that Hostile Waters has been out for a while, how is it playing? I've unfortunately not had the opportunity to play a live match yet, so I cannot judge myself.

[Pushwall]

I haven't had much opportunity to play it either, but the stats since the release and using the 6-player rule are 5 allied victories and 4 soviet victories, so it's not clearly imbalanced right now judging from that... though there's only been one base destruction victory.

[Pushwall]

Hey I know you lurkers are unsatisfied with certain maps judging from the occasional random look at irc. I can't be in every single game on every single map to see what the actual problem with the map is especially since your comments tend to be incredibly unhelpful stuff like "bad map" or "skip". Feel free to post here and elaborate more on what's actually wrong with them!

[FRAYDO]

To reiterate, less "maps is bad" more "I dislike this map and here is a detailed explanation as to why I don't"

[SarahNautili]

What is the map balance looking like after the latest patch?

Edited April 13, 2016 by SarahNautili

[ganein14]

Okay, here's my two cents on some maps I find bad in some ways.

 

F.o.I: I find this map to be fun quite a bit, but I'd like some variety as to what you could spawn as. Or maybe add a barracks/outpost that would be used to change classes based on what you earned. Though nothing above tech level 1. It also tends to last a little too long in my opinion.

 

Rocktrap: This map, while nice and unique with exploding barrels, tends to drag on or seem too one sided when there are quite a few players. Not to mention that the abundant brush makes it hard to see anything without using the hit box of your target or getting the high ground, which is similar to painting a big 'SHOOT ME!' sign and holding it above your head.

[Pushwall]

Think I'm going to cut FoI and Rocktrap from the rotation anyway since they're the maps with the biggest outcry, probably because they're still DM maps at heart and domination hasn't shaken it up that much. But I'll take those suggestions into consideration since people may want to play them from time to time (ask a mod to set next map). In particular, the sort-of success of the Tournament plugin that rantanplan (I think) was working on may convince me to revert FoI to having rifleman spawns because the plugin means we can just have techie wars (or volkov wars or tanya wars etc) whenever we feel like it.

 

Unfortunately spawning as a random unit is unlikely to happen, and even if we found a way to do it, it would be open to abuse because people will just hit the suicide button or jump off cliffs on RockTrap until they get what they want/whatever's most overpowered.

 

The outpost idea is actually something I planned to do for FoI originally, though instead of an outpost it was an isolated spawning area where you were safe from the enemy and could one-way teleport to any of the 3 areas (instead of just randomly spawning in them) or use a PT with access to price-altered rifles/sargs/caps, spies (allied) and grenadiers (soviet). But it got cut due to time constraints. It would be possible to do that though.

[Alstar]

I like that idea for FoI. Sad to hear that DM maps will be probably cut off I enjoyed the hell outta them, probably as only one.

[JigglyJie]

I like DM type maps, makes a nice break from near constant AoW. It's why I kinda want Antlion and Luna back, even CamosCrossing was a nice twist.

 

On a different note, I'm fine with the majority of maps, except that it's too easy to lose the Barracks on Hostile Waters and it kinda sucks when you can't do anything at all to capture the middle. Same applies to Pipeline with the oil (except the Barracks is easier to defend).

 

KotG I think also has too many trees near the left base entrance, makes navigating a nightmare. Either remove a few or spread them out further, it's too easy to get stuck and since the Allies have a smaller frame in general, they are able to exploit that advantage without too much retaliation.

[TeamWolf]

I think DM maps just need a very small timer of about 2-3 mins. Keep it nice, quick and fun.

[ChopBam]

KotG I think also has too many trees near the left base entrance, makes navigating a nightmare. Either remove a few or spread them out further, it's too easy to get stuck and since the Allies have a smaller frame in general, they are able to exploit that advantage without too much retaliation.

I've never had trouble, and my ping hangs around 200 the whole time. With mammoth tanks I stick to the road, generally. Everything else I've been able to navigate through tree clusters with relative ease.

[FRAYDO]

I thought Luna was pretty neat. Never mind collecting crates of dubious importance, I always found it cool to fight on the moon. I remember there was a texture mod by Threve for it that turned the whole map into cheese lol.

[Pushwall]

I thought Luna was pretty neat. Never mind collecting crates of dubious importance, I always found it cool to fight on the moon. I remember there was a texture mod by Threve for it that turned the whole map into cheese lol.

 

That's rude of you to just assume that all zany texture mods are Threve's. http://www.bluehellproductions.com/forum/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=63

[FRAYDO]

Well I'll be damned

 

RA_Cheese when?

[Raptor29aa]

LoL low gravity combat was awesome on top of cheese. I still remember flying grenades through space into the opposing teams spawn.

[OWA]

 

I thought Luna was pretty neat. Never mind collecting crates of dubious importance, I always found it cool to fight on the moon. I remember there was a texture mod by Threve for it that turned the whole map into cheese lol.

That's rude of you to just assume that all zany texture mods are Threve's. http://www.bluehellproductions.com/forum/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=63

 

[Ice]

Think I'm going to cut FoI and Rocktrap from the rotation anyway since they're the maps with the biggest outcry, probably because they're still DM maps at heart and domination hasn't shaken it up that much. But I'll take those suggestions into consideration since people may want to play them from time to time (ask a mod to set next map). In particular, the sort-of success of the Tournament plugin that rantanplan (I think) was working on may convince me to revert FoI to having rifleman spawns because the plugin means we can just have techie wars (or volkov wars or tanya wars etc) whenever we feel like it.

 

Unfortunately spawning as a random unit is unlikely to happen, and even if we found a way to do it, it would be open to abuse because people will just hit the suicide button or jump off cliffs on RockTrap until they get what they want/whatever's most overpowered.

 

The outpost idea is actually something I planned to do for FoI originally, though instead of an outpost it was an isolated spawning area where you were safe from the enemy and could one-way teleport to any of the 3 areas (instead of just randomly spawning in them) or use a PT with access to price-altered rifles/sargs/caps, spies (allied) and grenadiers (soviet). But it got cut due to time constraints. It would be possible to do that though.

Personally FoI and RockTrap are 2 of my favourite maps. I don't like being stuck in constant AOW and it's a nice break having a simple deathmatch/domination map every once in a while. It would be very sad to see either of these maps go. :/

Edited April 18, 2016 by Ice

[Raptor29aa]

I agree domination maps are fun because it takes to focus off of endless meat grinding.

Although FOI can break down into that very quickly. Needs more crates away from control points and not next to them. To spread the area out.

[Raap]

Dominion mode doesn't have to be gone forever. If I got time for it, I plan to use it to create a hybrid Domination/C&C mode gameplay for Siege, once I wrap up my current plans for the new Fjord.

 

If I had unlimited time, I'd have both those maps ready by now already. Unfortunately, I do not.

 

Edit: No map has to be gone forever. Both FoI and RockTrap can be turned into small base maps with some development... FoI being easier for that due to the modular design. Also, Fissure_Flying_Flares.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Raap

[Pushwall]

They're being tweaked somewhat for the next patch, so they may make it back into permanent rotation. They're both being dropped down to a 5 minute timer a la Gamma (with the points requirements and spawn time for FoI's special items being halved as well), RockTrap is getting basic character crates (no Tanya vs Technicians BS, but it does include a class that hasn't been on DM maps before and should shake it up a bit due to its uniqueness...) and Forest of Illusion is going to have the Tournament plugin enabled so the spawn character isn't always the same. Oh and RockTrap is having some of its marsh-grass cleaned out and FoI won't have any barbed wire in the forest.