A Path Beyond Community Balance Feedback

[MPRA2]

12 minutes ago, Coolrock said:

This was actually tried out in testing a long time ago. Problem was that smart players would golden wrench the building just before the second C4 would go off. They changed it back to a single C4 needless to say.

You know what would help clear a Tanya out of a building quickly, and allow you a chance to save the building? Attack Dogs! 

attack dogs scripted by Jerad.

[Gummiel]

10 hours ago, NodGuy said:

I've always said that Mechanics shouldn't be allowed to drive vehicles. It's unfair to the Soviets that you can be in a tank and attacking an Allied tank but all that allied player needs to do is go behind cover for a sec to heal his tank. I do this a lot and I always feel like a piece of shit but hey, winning's winning.

That would actually be interesting, though would have quite a big impact, but certainly could alleviate some of the concerns @GaryOaktalked about too, of allied having basically comparable firepower to soviet, while being able to repair in field. If mechs can't drive tanks, well allied would first have to sacrifice at least one person for mech duty, and probably have at least one other vehicle he can be a passenger in to protect him when needed (apc or ranger), which would cut down on the amount of MBT's they have if they want to sustain of the mech, and in really big games/pushes, may need more than one mech to adequately do it. AND since there would have to be used other infantry for the tank driver (probably would be RS and captains mainly), it might be good to bring a medic along too, to heal them, and  the mechs up if/when needed, when some of the tanks do go down. So in short it would mean much more varied units would have to be in use in an allied push

Also would mean that phases would have to be a LOT more carefull too, when acting alone, as they can't have a mech inside them either, so taking even a bit a damage, they would pretty much have to retreat to find a mech or an SD, as even a small amount of damage would put them in risk of getting killed by the hard hitters in a single shot.

That said though, yeah I think it could do a lot of good in high player count games, but I do fear it would absolutely decimate allied in low player count games, so unless it is possible to have it so mechs can only be drivers when there is less than say 4 players on the team or something, I fear it would do more harm than good

 

Other than that yeah the flamethrower and volkov could need some tweaking. Flamethrowers I just end up rarely even getting. And if I get a volkov against inf I end up often just using his AT cannon even against inf, his AP don't seem to do much for me, essentially making him a beefier but very expensive RPG-soldier. Not sure what those tweaks should be exactly though

[Pushwall]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:05 AM, moonsense715 said:

Also, nerf Tanya C4, like, right now. Split it to 2 C4s with a 5 seconds reload time so she can still solo a building. 30 seconds instantkill from full hp is absolutely uncounterable once placed. "but get better and mine the base" - did, the mines are 90% of the time killed by tha tanya transport or one single friend and from then on it's gg. No thanks.

I actually wanted to do this when I was still working on the game, but there's a huge problem with it. C4 can attach to other C4 (as shown in my avatar). If you throw a C4 on the MCT, and then you throw another one and it attaches to the first one, you just screwed yourself because now the second one can't explode; it'll just vanish harmlessly when the first one explodes. Moving around while throwing a C4 (either to avoid fire or to attempt to ensure that the second doesn't attach to the first) while having not the best of ping is already begging for the game to launch your C4 off in a different direction and miss the MCT, and this would just make matters worse because it feels even more bullshit than missing the MCT. So there needs to be a way to make C4s not collide with each other for this to work.

On 2/18/2021 at 2:20 AM, Coolrock said:

This was actually tried out in testing a long time ago. Problem was that smart players would golden wrench the building just before the second C4 would go off. They changed it back to a single C4 needless to say.

So... just make the C4s do 60% MCT damage instead of 50%? Isn't this a problem with MADs too? I always felt I should upgrade their damage from 34% to 37.5% or something to make it harder to cheese them but it's one of those things I kept forgetting about and it doesn't really solve the core problem of how you have to align the stars to get MADs in position in the first place

[Coolrock]

You’d just be giving Tanya a chance to bomb two buildings instead of one then? I could C4 one with a rush of vehicles/rocket soldiers, then go to another building and do the same again. 

[Pushwall]

15 minutes ago, Coolrock said:

You’d just be giving Tanya a chance to bomb two buildings instead of one then? I could C4 one with a rush of vehicles/rocket soldiers, then go to another building and do the same again. 

The more ground Tanya has to cover, the more likely she is to die before using the second C4. Going between buildings means having to cross more potential minefields and angery defenders with starshinas and volkovs. If she pulls off a double then Soviets have to git gud I guess.

And like you said, it requires a rush with a group. It's not something that one goober soloing behind enemy lines can do, like her current ability to kill 1 building that all the Tanya complaints centre around.

It'd also put a lid on people suicide driving vehicles up to a flame tower/coil, putting one tanya C4 on it and winning.

[ryknow69]

8 hours ago, Coolrock said:

This was actually tried out in testing a long time ago. Problem was that smart players would golden wrench the building just before the second C4 would go off. They changed it back to a single C4 needless to say.

You know what would help clear a Tanya out of a building quickly, and allow you a chance to save the building? Attack Dogs! 

60% building hp per C4

 

Bam gwrench can't save that

[1000MammothTanks]

The problem is that there's no infantry counter to Tanya so it is extremely hard to kill her within 30 seconds and disarm the C4. In Renegade, Hotwire can also solo destroy buildings but she only has a dinky pistol to defend herself. It is much harder for Hotwire to protect her C4. Hotwire also has multiple c4s which potentially lets defenders save the building between detonations. I liked that. Especially if you could force her to detonate her remote charges early and repair the building before the timed charges detonated.

Edited February 18, 2021 by 1000MammothTanks
elaboration

[Coolrock]

6 hours ago, Pushwall said:

The more ground Tanya has to cover, the more likely she is to die before using the second C4. Going between buildings means having to cross more potential minefields and angery defenders with starshinas and volkovs. If she pulls off a double then Soviets have to git gud I guess.

And like you said, it requires a rush with a group. It's not something that one goober soloing behind enemy lines can do, like her current ability to kill 1 building that all the Tanya complaints centre around.

It'd also put a lid on people suicide driving vehicles up to a flame tower/coil, putting one tanya C4 on it and winning.

But we already have this.

I’m more than willing to have it tested again regardless. I’m also all for Tanya saying, “Kiss it bye bye” more than once 

[moonsense715]

48 minutes ago, 1000MammothTanks said:

The problem is that there's no infantry counter to Tanya so it is extremely hard to kill her within 30 seconds and disarm the C4. In Renegade, Hotwire can also solo destroy buildings but she only has a dinky pistol to defend herself. It is much harder for Hotwire to protect her C4. Hotwire also has multiple c4s which potentially lets defenders save the building between detonations. I liked that. Especially if you could force her to detonate her remote charges early and repair the building before the timed charges detonated.

This. I agree that jumpspamming around the mct with the engi wrench to disarm the bomb was annoying for the Tanya player (happened to me as well), but now you have to stand still to disarm it, ready to be headshotted by Tanya. So in any 1v1 cases, you either have luck and kill her very fast and THEN buy a repair unit and disarm bomb, it's pretty hard to pull off within 30 seconds. Or ignore her and just disarm the bomb, she either has to be really bad at aiming or you need 4 engineers/techs around which is usually not the case (or even if it is, that's a lot of players required to counter a single unit that is not limited in number).

Also in Ren, vehicles could not blow up the mines as they were placed indoors, disarming them required Hotwire to stand outside the building for some time.

[Coolrock]

Did we see a lot of this during the game night events? I don’t recall many, if any, Tanya rushes when I was in the server. I could be wrong, but I just want to make sure we’re talking about recent matches and not considering the lower player count matches. 

[ryknow69]

8 minutes ago, Coolrock said:

Did we see a lot of this during the game night events? I don’t recall many, if any, Tanya rushes when I was in the server. I could be wrong, but I just want to make sure we’re talking about recent matches and not considering the lower player count matches. 

No, there wasn't really much except the few. 

Giving her 2 C4 which do 60-65% structure HP, with a 3-5 sec delay between detonations, would alleviate a large amount of concerns against Tanya, while also opening the door for higher skill play; "Do I waste 20-30% structure damage to kill one building, or spread it and coordinate with a Tank rush and potentially garner a double structure takedown?"


In relation to the Mechanic and vehicle talks, I discussed with @Coolrock about the Costal Influence match where I did the Chrono rush, about how I was mid with my brother as he Mechanic'd and I Medic'd. It breaths a large breath of cooperation into the allies to make them actually use their wide variety of support troops and vehicles(Supply Truck has a new use to refill Medic Armor Cache's as they help heal up the frontline infantry) and this also helps with the secondary issue related to what happens if you get double TT burned and lose your tank, now you have nothing to really do but run all the way back to base, where soviets if they lose their tank, they typically are a shockie or RPG coming out and can continue the battle.
Additional balancing would 100% be needed to MBT's on both sides if mechanics shift from the 100% go to guy to a support infantry. Even Mechanic repair speed might need to be readdressed.

[ryknow69]

Also I still formally support the reconstructing of the Grenadier and RPG trooper into a single unit, different from yall's failed prior examples(from which the only one yall have mentioned was an expensive version one which is the wrong-think way of going about this change)

[moonsense715]

I was just reminded: vehicle weakpoints. Either communicate them blue in the face or they should be removed. I just got to know even some top APB players didn't know about its existence and therefore it is a hidden feature and an unfair advantage for those lucky to somehow know about it.

Actually let's see if the problem can prove itself: how many of you don't know what this is?

[Killing_You]

10 minutes ago, moonsense715 said:

I was just reminded: vehicle weakpoints. Either communicate them blue in the face or they should be removed. I just got to know even some top APB players didn't know about its existence and therefore it is a hidden feature and an unfair advantage for those lucky to somehow know about it.

Actually let's see if the problem can prove itself: how many of you don't know what this is?

Honestly, maybe it's just because I'm too focused on "shoot it until it dies," but I haven't noticed it make that much of an impact. The difference almost feels negligible to me. Most people do try to go for the rear if possible anyway, though, either because that's not where the enemy is looking (thereby maximising the time it takes for the target to respond to you), or because many vehicles have turret restrictions preventing them from shooting behind them.

[sith_wampa]

V2 and Mammy missiles need increased damage and splash. 

V2s are already very squishy. Dying from a singe rifle soldier should almost never happen, yet if the V2 doesn't land a difficult perfect shot on the first try, they are likely dead.

Mammies should not die 1v1 to a rocket soldier. I understand we need Allies to have a way to stop rushes when the War Factory is down. But mammies also need the ability to defend themselves. The missiles are nearly useless right now.

[Gummiel]

18 minutes ago, moonsense715 said:

I was just reminded: vehicle weakpoints. Either communicate them blue in the face or they should be removed. I just got to know even some top APB players didn't know about its existence and therefore it is a hidden feature and an unfair advantage for those lucky to somehow know about it.

Actually let's see if the problem can prove itself: how many of you don't know what this is?

I know they exist, not 100% sure on where they are, other than back should be weaker, front stronger, but the difference seem non-noticeable, either that, or they are at some obscure point that is impossible to hit consistently

V2 and Mammy missiles need increased damage and splash. 

V2s are already very squishy. Dying from a singe rifle soldier should almost never happen, yet if the V2 doesn't land a difficult perfect shot on the first try, they are likely dead.

Mammies should not die 1v1 to a rocket soldier. I understand we need Allies to have a way to stop rushes when the War Factory is down. But mammies also need the ability to defend themselves. The missiles are nearly useless right now.

For V2, imo no, if you are alone with a V2 and no backup, yes a rifle should be a threat, you are literally in the most building damage focused vehicle, get an escort if you want to be safe

 

Mammy missiles, a bit, but gotta watch out not making the aoe too big, as they used to, to the point where RS is not even a threat at all

Edited February 18, 2021 by GummiBear

[NodGuy]

25 minutes ago, moonsense715 said:

I was just reminded: vehicle weakpoints. Either communicate them blue in the face or they should be removed. I just got to know even some top APB players didn't know about its existence and therefore it is a hidden feature and an unfair advantage for those lucky to somehow know about it.

Actually let's see if the problem can prove itself: how many of you don't know what this is?

I don’t even know, except that I think shooting the rear does more damage. Are there other points? I’m in favour of just removing it, and I say remove the headshot multiplier too. If I get OHK’d when I’m a Shocky or Volkov one more time due to a lucky shot I’m going to lose it. 

9 minutes ago, sith_wampa said:

V2 and Mammy missiles need increased damage and splash. 

V2s are already very squishy. Dying from a singe rifle soldier should almost never happen, yet if the V2 doesn't land a difficult perfect shot on the first try, they are likely dead.

I agree. I liked it better when the V2 could defeat rifle guys with one splash-damage shot. 

[GaryOak]

3 hours ago, Killing_You said:

Honestly, maybe it's just because I'm too focused on "shoot it until it dies," but I haven't noticed it make that much of an impact. The difference almost feels negligible to me. Most people do try to go for the rear if possible anyway, though, either because that's not where the enemy is looking (thereby maximising the time it takes for the target to respond to you), or because many vehicles have turret restrictions preventing them from shooting behind them.

Exactly this. I've tried looking to see the effect so many times that I've gone wondering if its not actually bugged, because I just never got the impression it made a single hit point of a difference.

Even worse, trying to hit the rear instead of the side has ended up in me missing quite a few shots. And that just feels bad - if you can't even see the difference between a side hit and a rear hit, you realise that you would need like 50 succesful "Rear hit instead of side hit"s just to make up for missing that one shot.

Today, whenever I get the choice between targeting front, side or rear, I know exactly what to go for. The side that's most likely to land my shot on.

 

[1000MammothTanks]

Please prevent self-detonating demo trucks from damaging your own secondary structures (sd, defenses, etc). Self-detonating doesn't damage your primary buildings so it should not damage your secondary buildings either.

Edited February 18, 2021 by 1000MammothTanks

[SilverShark]

15 hours ago, 1000MammothTanks said:

there's no infantry counter to Tanya

Starshina

[Guard55]

Quick question. Is the Tesla Tank's targeting range the same as its actual range?

[MPRA2]

Genuine feedback. I really think we should change the Ore Silo's aesthetic to more fit the Remastered version.

Anyways I do agree that Tanya SHOULD receive some kind of nerf, as its way too easy to solo-kill defenses. It does get really irritating sometimes when a Tanya rushes up with a ranger to the Tesla Coil on Zama, and just nobody seems to want to do anything about it, and by the time an engineer can even get near it, the Tanya kills them, or the coil explodes. One way we could alleviate this is to eliminate the "dead zone" for the Flame Tower and Tesla Coil to allow point blank fire instead of outright nerfing Tanya.

The V2 does also seem really underwhelming, especially vs infantry. I think in its current state its fine against buildings, but I'd vouch for a slight buff against vehicles (especially direct hits), and a massive damage buff against infantry.

Edited February 19, 2021 by MPRA2

[Pushwall]

2 hours ago, MPRA2 said:

It does get really irritating sometimes when a Tanya rushes up with a ranger to the Tesla Coil on Zama, and just nobody seems to want to do anything about it, and by the time an engineer can even get near it, the Tanya kills them, or the coil explodes. One way we could alleviate this is to eliminate the "dead zone" for the Flame Tower and Tesla Coil to allow point blank fire instead of outright nerfing Tanya.

...Did we revert to Beta when I wasn't looking or something? There are no point blank dead zones, only ones that are too far away to throw C4 from (like behind distant trees). Even if Chop can pull off whatever voodoo is needed to get rid of the thing that doesn't exist, that doesn't stop the power plant from being spied (which is the only way your story makes any sense aside from it being dead) or in the case of flame towers, doesn't stop Tanya from just waiting until after it fires to hop out of her vehicle (or just let it be destroyed) and safely place a C4 before it fires again. Hence double C4, forcing her to stick around longer.

[Voe]

6 hours ago, Guard55 said:

Quick question. Is the Tesla Tank's targeting range the same as its actual range?

Probably not, it's all busted atm.

[Voe]

18 hours ago, NodGuy said:

I don’t even know, except that I think shooting the rear does more damage. Are there other points? I’m in favour of just removing it, and I say remove the headshot multiplier too. If I get OHK’d when I’m a Shocky or Volkov one more time due to a lucky shot I’m going to lose it. 

I agree. I liked it better when the V2 could defeat rifle guys with one splash-damage shot. 

Removing headshots, because you get one shotted, and then reintroducing one shotting V2s at the same time?

[ryknow69]

3 hours ago, Voe said:

Removing headshots, because you get one shotted, and then reintroducing one shotting V2s at the same time?

Pretty much this ^^^

Having a V2 1 shot my freshly bought Artillery before I even fire a round occurred thrice on the first gamenight. And as a field mechanic, I took plenty of deadly splash against the V2's.

[SilverShark]

Tesla weapons have a slight deviation that sometimes makes me miss the target at a distance. If you ask me, they should be pinpoint accurate.

[NodGuy]

8 hours ago, Voe said:

Removing headshots, because you get one shotted, and then reintroducing one shotting V2s at the same time?

Apples and oranges. You shouldn’t compare a Shock Trooper/Volkov being OHK by, say, a Rocket Solder/Light Tank with a V2 OHK the free, basic character. Besides, I’m only half serious. 

 

4 hours ago, ryknow69 said:

Pretty much this ^^^

Having a V2 1 shot my freshly bought Artillery before I even fire a round occurred thrice on the first gamenight. And as a field mechanic, I took plenty of deadly splash against the V2's.

The Artillery can also OHK the V2, it’s just more difficult and only a couple of players can do it consistently. I think it’s more of a problem with the War Factory exit ramp being exposed to the direction of the enemy. I’m looking at you, Pipeline. 

[Guard55]

16 hours ago, Voe said:

Probably not, it's all busted atm.

Oh okay. It felt as if the targeting range is slightly greater than the actual range. Could just be me messing it up.

[NodGuy]

2 hours ago, Guard55 said:

Oh okay. It felt as if the targeting range is slightly greater than the actual range. Could just be me messing it up.

It is slightly longer. I’ve noticed it too and it can be annoying.