Balance Sniper

[SilverShark]

Before the Delta update, the sniper rifle had a point and click function. In Delta, it was changed so the sniper rifle fires projectiles that drop over distance.

This change was most likely made to discourage excess usage of the class, and make the sniper a more challenging class to use.

I'm in favour of the changes that were made, but I've started to question the sniper's overall usefulness at contributing in battle, other than being an annoying "killwhoring" unit.

First of all, snipers are really easy to counter, as most maps have lots of obstacles to hide behind. The class itself has poor survivability, a solely anti-infantry weapon with slow fire rate and projectile travel time and drop, which is barely useful on infantry only maps due to their small, narrow spaces. Say, if you needed to kill some enemy infantry, why not just get up close and personal with any other offensive infantry class, rather than trying to awkwardly hit them with a sluggish sniper rifle?

Secondly, the sniper is useless most of the time, because enemy players will be driving vehicles (unless they lost their War Factory) or hanging around inside buildings. Due to engine limitations, snipers can't shoot through truck windshields or hit people seated in Rangers.

So, the point here is, should something be done to make the sniper a more useful class, or should it stay as it is now?

[Pushwall]

Before the Delta update, the sniper's rifle had a point and click function, but the class was still somehow fairly balanced.

 

Only on the few maps that it appeared on. Which were DM maps. There's a reason the devs back then had them removed from actual maps, and that's that it was not balanced. I know, it's crazy, CJ actually made good choices on rare occasions.

 

and make the sniper a more challenging class to use?

 

Exactly. Remember that one of the main priorities of Delta was making it so that infantry that aren't shock/kov are actually worth using in the field instead of just being funny things to look at for the 5 seconds between your vehicle dying and you dying. Instant unpreventable death to something you had no hope of seeing or countering puts a big hamper on that.

 

Also, the sniper's tracer bullets can give his position away.

 

Again, that's the idea. But given that they take 0.3 seconds to travel their full range and you can't really see them until they're within about 50m of you anyway, it's not exactly easy to see an enemy's tracers. Better that it takes like a dozen shots to pinpoint a sniper's location than ten minutes of searching for the guy himself.

 

The sniper's bullets can't even pierce trucks' windshields or hit people seated in Rangers.

 

Not sure that adding a glaring weakness to 2 vehicles that are already very limited in their use (Supply Trucks after the first 3 minutes and Rangers on almost every map), and adding the same glaring weakness to the V2 but not the Allied artillery that lacks a visible driver, is the right way to go about improving the sniper's use. And I'm pretty sure it's not possible to make the visible drivers take damage anyway.

 

Has anyone else wished the sniper to become a more useful class, or should it stay as it is now?

 

I wanted it to be able to damage MCTs and light vehicles but only if it was within a certain range. Say, a little longer than the range of a tesla tank. But that's also not possible as far as I can tell without giving the sniper a whole different rifle for mid-range engagements, like an SKS for Soviet and Gewehr for Allied (and who's gonna model/texture those?) or just castrating its range (and then it's not a sniper anymore).

 

The sniper gets accuracy penalty even when standing

 

Noted; will take a look at that.

 

thanks to the slow projectiles that drop

 

I'm not sure how higher the projectile velocity can go before the game just says no (and at a too high point it'll basically be hitscan and impossible to see the projectile again, which is bad) but I'll give this a look too.

[JigglyJie]

No, because back then they ruined infantry combat. Maps where war factories were down and you couldn't do pretty much anything in terms of assaulting the enemy base because a sniper appeared and went NOPE.avi to your assault. Then there was the typical sniper kill whore who refused to buy anything or help the team in proper ways apart from just kill whoring.

 

It was even worse when the SVD was statistically different from the Enfield, I liked how the SVD was different but the Allied one was an instant kill, the Soviets might as well have just given up.

 

I still detest snipers but they're a lot better now, I guess...

[Pushwall]

It was even worse when the SVD was statistically different from the Enfield, I liked how the SVD was different but the Allied one was an instant kill, the Soviets might as well have just given up.

 

In testing I did actually bring back the SVD's faster fire rate/lower damage. It kinda worked since getting sniper headshots period is a lot harder in Delta than before, so the Enfield didn't have a clear advantage like before. But it was still too much pain to balance back then so it didn't make it into the final release. Might be time for a comeback for that?

[Pyryle]

No, because back then they ruined infantry combat. Maps where war factories were down and you couldn't do pretty much anything in terms of assaulting the enemy base because a sniper appeared and went NOPE.avi to your assault. Then there was the typical sniper kill whore who refused to buy anything or help the team in proper ways apart from just kill whoring.

 

It was even worse when the SVD was statistically different from the Enfield, I liked how the SVD was different but the Allied one was an instant kill, the Soviets might as well have just given up.

Pretty much this. Though I'm not afraid to admit that I enjoyed sniping pre-Delta, this is what thinned out servers. The winning team usually ended up prolonging an already one-sided game (depending on who had the more skilled players, of course), causing players from the losing team to just leave the game (and probably not rejoin after a while because of said prolonged game). And lol, Beta SVD...

[ChAoS]

 

No, because back then they ruined infantry combat. Maps where war factories were down and you couldn't do pretty much anything in terms of assaulting the enemy base because a sniper appeared and went NOPE.avi to your assault. Then there was the typical sniper kill whore who refused to buy anything or help the team in proper ways apart from just kill whoring.

 

It was even worse when the SVD was statistically different from the Enfield, I liked how the SVD was different but the Allied one was an instant kill, the Soviets might as well have just given up.

Pretty much this. Though I'm not afraid to admit that I enjoyed sniping pre-Delta, this is what thinned out servers. The winning team usually ended up prolonging an already one-sided game (depending on who had the more skilled players, of course), causing players from the losing team to just leave the game (and probably not rejoin after a while because of said prolonged game). And lol, Beta SVD...

 

Hey the beta SVD was a fun challenge!

 

But yeah as much as I liked sniping in beta, I agree.

[delta]

All I know is that I could not snipe back in Beta...not sure why but it seemed like whenever I went into scope mode the cursor just moved really sluggishly and that always threw me off. I think I do slightly better with the current snipers, but I'm still not great at it.

Edited September 18, 2016 by delta

[Einstein]

All I know is that I could not snipe back in Beta...not sure why but it seemed like whenever I went into scope mode the cursor just moved really sluggishly and that always threw me off. I think I do slightly better with the current snipers, but I'm still not great at it.

 

I don't always scope my SVD....but when I do, I make sure its in the split second shared with entering a tank! I know some of you remember that trick

[Alstar]

Snipers were removed for a reason. Back in Gamma days, if you lost factory then you can pretty much leave the game, because enemy team will surely bring at least 3 or 4 snipers and killwhore you to the rest of round. And it doesnt matter that you have volkov/tanya, they die from single headshot aswell. Also, Gamma sniper was too easy to use unlike current and beta one. As for me, sniper changes are good, because right now they require you to git gud if you want to kill anything.

[ganein14]

git gud if you want to kill anything.

Like me with that time I snapshot Silverlight in the head while he was shooting at me with a shockie. Only had 2 HP after that encounter, but still.

[FRAYDO]

I've liked the challenge in using the class, but I've started to question the sniper's overall usefulness at contributing in battle.

First of all, the sniper is only sure to get kills against enemies standing still. Hitting moving targets is a matter of luck, thanks to the slow projectiles that drop, and how easy it is to dodge projectiles in W3D by strafing and jumping. Good luck in finding any enemy willing to stand still.

Nothing like picking off a techie or eng fixing up a base defense.

 

In regard to hitting moving targets; it's a challenge but satisfying to drop enemy soldiers. In the case of support, you can snipe enemy Shocks and Rocket Soldiers as they come out of destroyed tanks, helping your tanks move forward with less hassle.

[Pushwall]

Might be worth giving rocket soldiers and shocks larger inaccuracy penalties for jumping so that they have to choose between being sniper fodder and being unable to reliably hit vehicles at max range?

[Killing_You]

As long as they don't fire behind them, fine by me.

[Pushwall]

Hence "reliably" instead of "ever".

[TeamWolf]

 

It was even worse when the SVD was statistically different from the Enfield, I liked how the SVD was different but the Allied one was an instant kill, the Soviets might as well have just given up.

 

In testing I did actually bring back the SVD's faster fire rate/lower damage. It kinda worked since getting sniper headshots period is a lot harder in Delta than before, so the Enfield didn't have a clear advantage like before. But it was still too much pain to balance back then so it didn't make it into the final release. Might be time for a comeback for that?

 

 

I'm in favour of this idea.

[Einstein]

I as well. I miss the distinct difference between these two in beta.

[ChopBam]

It could be worth trying. What I detested about the Soviet Beta Sniper was his utterly silly inaccuracy.

[JigglyJie]

I would love the Beta SVD to return, I liked how it was different. A return can be warranted considering how sniping is different now. It only sucked because it had piss-poor accuracy and no bonus headshot damage. Some of that was rectified in the following versions but the Allied one was always supreme because it was an instant kill. Plus V sniping and other jazz included.

[Voe]

Snipers are perfect now. If you buff them in any way they'll become op.

 

That's my 5 cents.

[Einstein]

aboose! only 2 cents are allowed!

[Voe]

 

 

It was even worse when the SVD was statistically different from the Enfield, I liked how the SVD was different but the Allied one was an instant kill, the Soviets might as well have just given up.

 

In testing I did actually bring back the SVD's faster fire rate/lower damage. It kinda worked since getting sniper headshots period is a lot harder in Delta than before, so the Enfield didn't have a clear advantage like before. But it was still too much pain to balance back then so it didn't make it into the final release. Might be time for a comeback for that?

 

 

I'm in favour of this idea.

 

 

 

I as well. I miss the distinct difference between these two in beta.

 

 

It could be worth trying. What I detested about the Soviet Beta Sniper was his utterly silly inaccuracy.

 

I am against. Sniper's advantage is surprise. Allied sniper (or both currently) can land a headshot and remove the infantry before it starts frantically jumping around, making it really hard to hit. If you make soviet sniper deal less damage, it will completely nullify first shot advantage and, in exchange, make it a lot less reliable.

 

This idea has been tested in a brazillion ways throughout the last 6 years. It was impossible to balance. Hence the snipers were made identical. It just doesn't work.

 

Don't repeat the same mistakes and try learning from past experiences.

[Testament]

I like how snipers currently are, hard to use but they fill a niche.

 

say, whatever happened to being able to move the reticle off of the center of the scope as if you were in 3rd person? That was rad as hell.

[Pushwall]

say, whatever happened to being able to move the reticle off of the center of the scope as if you were in 3rd person? That was rad as hell.

 

That was a result of using a script to activate scope mode instead of using the engine's vanilla "secondary fire to scope" logic like in Renegade and now. It also resulted in the scope being EXTREMELY jittery, moving drastically from the slightest bit of mouse movement, and impossible to center on someone's head... unless you used V to have smooth reticle movement instead. Or an enemy happened to move their head into the spot that you were aiming at (fat chance). Essentially, v-sniping was a fucking retarded idea supported by killwhores who wanted to snipe newbies without fear of being sniped back. It locked newbies out of being allowed to snipe because who the fuck is going to just magically know that you can use V in first person when scoping when you can't use it in first person normally? Before I knew about v-sniping I had to drop my mouse sensitivity to about 1/10 of its normal value every time I bought a sniper and reset it afterwards and figured that either this was just how all the good players managed to snipe properly (which is bad game design) or that they were just cheating (which is an entirely reasonable conclusion to jump to given how unusable the scope was by default).