A Path Beyond Dogs In APB: A Discussion

[FRAYDO]

As you may have noticed in the recent update, a Kennel was teased. Of course, a Kennel would also mean dogs being included. This was quickly covered up on account of it being meant as a joke before getting to the real update. The Kennel icon alone did spark some interest, though we did not intend for that to happen. This is not to say dogs in APB are impossible. Chrono Tanks, MiGs, and Cruisers were impossible before, and yet here we are.

What it really boils down to is how can we best implement dogs into APB? After some internal discussion, we have thought it best to ask you, the players, for your input.

If you could put dogs in the game, how would you define them?
What role would they play?
How do we ensure the dogs do not overlap the flamethrower/starshina too much?
How would we encourage field use since dogs cannot reasonably damage buildings?
How would the attack work?
Should dogs even be playable or be AI-controlled bots?

These are the questions we're asking, and we would like your response.

And yes @des1206 we can easily give the dog a bark on the alt-fire.

[blurb]Dogs in APB. A possibility, though we would like your feedback first. More details in the thread.[/blurb]

[JigglyJie]

I've had this idea before but I never really refined it but in any case, I would make them AI-controlled only which players would have to manually contribute 'funds' in order to release ze hounds train a group of them that would patrol the base as some sort of alternative internal defence mechanism. Problem is, it might make it too tough for the Allies to deal with aggressive Spy checks, mines and now dogs, unless the Kennel appears on certain maps like Guard Duty or objective-based maps. Just a thought.

Edited October 24, 2018 by JigglyJie

[forg0ten1]

I want to be a doge

[des1206]

Dogs should be player controlled scout and ambusher.

Scout - If coding allows, let him to see all on foot infantry in a large distance by direct sight (maybe use green arrows on top infantry heads?). Let him also "see" phase tanks and mines too (he can smell/hear them), and be able to mark them for teammates. Also buff the spy a little more, and to balance out dogs in base.

Ambush - Give him no radar signature (he's a dog). If you see him coming, he has no chance with so little hp. But if he can sneak up on you for melee, one hit kill. That feeling of hunting and being hunted will be great for gameplay.

He can be made very useful with his own battlefield niche and his price doesn't have to be too cheap.

Edited October 24, 2018 by des1206

[Coolrock]

I’ll just add that I agree with it being a glass cannon, but not sure I agree with the one-hit kill. I actually like a DoT attack. Maybe making it take around 3 seconds to fully kill something. Snipers should be more focused on doing the one-hit kill stuff. 

I’d also like to see it player controlled. Who doesn’t want to run around and take wandering infantry by barking at them to death? I’m thinking of that Call of Duty mission. 

Cheap and fast would be it’s highlight. High risk high reward. Possibly die in 2-3 shots. Makes them almost play like a Spy by wanting to sneak around. You don’t need to rush into the enemy base, but should prowl around looking for units popping out of vehicles. Helping defend from infantry rushes would also be a good point. 

They shouldn’t be comparable to a Flame Trooper,  considering they can’t damage vehicles or buildings. This should go for the Starshina also. They’re also tougher and don’t have to worry about being taken out so easily. You aren’t going to rush a base with dogs, but with infantry/vehicles that can do all three.

I wouldn’t mind the Attack Dog even being able to “ping” infantry/vehicles. Maybe have a team notice that ‘x unit was spotted’?

 

[thedisclaimitory]

I want to be able to sniff out spies because it does get annoying that no one knows were a spy is or who is the spy because in ra1 dogs could detect spies and in ra2 dogs could easily detect spies and kill them so there should be a secondary mouse button or a Q button to sniff out those traitors but it will come at a cost because the dog will have gunk in his nose or it will be itchy what I mean is it will have a wait time before you can sniff them out again ..why??? Because balance thats why.. But what would be cool is if we get a chytskoy dog like in red alert 1 aftermath well I think It was aftermath ra1 idk I forgot it was one of them and not only will they be able to sniff out those traitors but they will sniff out tanks infantry why tanks and other vehicals because oil and exhaust can have a smell to you know and you never know what soviet dogs are trained for but there was an anti tank suicide dog the soviets used during ww2 so its possible that they could sniff out the exhaust or oil of a vehicle or tank but even then I kind of thought you guys were gonna do this for apb at one point since AR has already done it  

[des1206]

A dog who is resistant to tank shells would also make good mechanic counter if it ran amid allied tanks since he's one hit kill.

[Noire Leblanc]

I think the suggestions above regarding player controlled dogs would be suited to, perhaps, making a somewhat tougher one as a playable Chitzkoi. We've already got Volkov, why not Dogkov?

The kennel on the other hand could be another of the area-defenses, in a similar role to the Gap Generator; spawns a dog patrol periodically (if the existing one is dead.) AI dogs that can sniff out Phase Tanks (barking at them) and Spies (biting them) as well as harassing attempts to rush into a Soviet base with Tanya or Engies.

Such AI dogs should probably be fairly weak, able to be downed in a few good pistol hits or even a single good rifle burst; the idea is for them to overwhelm single intruders, not pose a serious threat to an infantry rush. At best against a determined incursion they should be a hint as to what building Tanya's about to demolish, not a wall that requires the Allies to smash the Kennel first.

AI dogs should of course be an interactable as well: press E to pet doggo.

[forg0ten1]

on second thought, after seeing that doge image, I don't thing doges are a good idea

[Metaridley]

- Dogs should only for Soviets
- Spy detecting should be only work on 10-25m to the spy
- barking is a must-have
- i would consider a one-hit or two-hit kill with the dog attack against hoomans
- they shouldn't enter buildings, that would make dogs in smaller rooms pretty op and make building inf rushes pretty hard for the opposite side
- no vehicles for doggies
- overall they main focus of dogs is base defense against infantry, and sub focus for the big battlefield in combo with tank destroyers, with that dogs can kill the infantry that came out of tanks
- not much life because doggies have no armor, but they should a bit faster than normal infantry
-chitzkoi plsssssssssssss

[GraYaSDF]

Wow, I remember that model. The first model of dog for APB made by russian developer KatzSmile, as well as Yak plane and other models (including... chronosphere stationary device, maybe?), before Bluehell Productions became to be inactive. This is horosho! Da, for the Soviet Union, make it please!

[Jerad2142]

25 minutes ago, GraYaSDF said:

Wow, I remember that model. The first model of dog for APB made by russian developer KatzSmile, as well as Yak plane and other models (including... chronosphere stationary device, maybe?), before Bluehell Productions became to be inactive. This is horosho! Da, for the Soviet Union, make it please!

You must remember a different model, this one was by Kavkling. 

Dogs should be AI pets, and you should have to be a handler and lead them around 😛

 

 

[VERTi60]

9 hours ago, FRAYDO said:

If you could put dogs in the game, how would you define them? What role would they play?

Cheap scouts, fastest non vehicle unit, anti infantry, cannot attack anything else and are very vulnerable (no armor) to explosions, shells, fire, shocks, etc.

Available for both sides for better balance. Dogs would have a special vision detecting enemy infantry (call it a "smellvission", e.g. enemy infantry would appear red on hud). This way dogs would be able to detect spies but also other enemy infantry from certain distance and/or possibly even through obstacles. Another alternative is  that they would have special radar only for detecting enemy infantry (which would always work even if radar was down or not available).

 

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How do we ensure the dogs do not overlap the flamethrower/starshina too much?

Flamethrowers and starshinas can attack buildings and vehicles, they have armor. Dogs would not be suitable for frontal attack due to low health and no armor.

 

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How would we encourage field use since dogs cannot reasonably damage buildings?

Mostly for defense, scouts ("smellvission"). They might be good to clear enemy buildings from technicians and engineers or support vs mechs, doctors, spies, and other support infantry so a potential support for small group tactical attacks. Potential threat to commando infantry if they are unaware of a dog nearby.

 

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How would the attack work?

Very close melee/aoe attack affecting single infantry health. It could work with a possible jump trigger (left click while targetting infantry = jump attack). Low and middle tier infantry should die instantly.

 

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Should dogs even be playable or be AI-controlled bots?

No AI unless it's a special map feature. Player controlled dogs are fun as seen in AR, they offer something unique in regards to gameplay. They shouldn't be hard to balance since they have limited use and no long range capabilities. If anything it would make infantry rushes more interesting/challenging.

 

 

[VERTi60]

3 hours ago, Jerad2142 said:

Dogs should be AI pets, and you should have to be a handler and lead them around

That could work on some maps, e.g. infantry only ones or with special objective. But on AOW with vehicles players should choose to control them as it would be a problem to drag pets in vehicles. Plus is fun to play as dog as seen in AR.

 

[moonsense715]

2 hours ago, VERTi60 said:

That could work on some maps, e.g. infantry only ones or with special objective. But on AOW with vehicles players should choose to control them as it would be a problem to drag pets in vehicles. Plus is fun to play as dog as seen in AR.

 

Testers agreed that it is not fun right now. Being under work.

[OWA]

Dogs need a lot of work before they can be fun. The main problem is a lack of telegraphing on the attack. Dog players currently run up to players with the mouse held down in order to make kills, which looks and feels really silly. It also feels really un-fun to play against. We're currently working on attack animations to telegraph when a dog is attacking which should hopefully fix it up a little bit, then we'll see where to go next.

[VERTi60]

Small balance issue doesn't mean it's not fun though - "Unfun" would mean if they would be not playable and still kill you in process

[OWA]

1 minute ago, VERTi60 said:

Small balance issue doesn't mean it's not fun though - "Unfun" would mean if they would be not playable and still kill you in process

It really depends what your definition of fun is in that case.

I think there is room for a lot of improvement. The fact that they are in AR and "work" isn't enough currently. There's more than just a small balance issue in the way of a good implementation that compliments the gameplay elements in a way that is much better than our first pass prototype.

[VERTi60]

Just now, OWA said:

It really depends what your definition of fun is in that case.

I think there is room for a lot of improvement. The fact that they are in AR and "work" isn't enough currently. There's more than just a small balance issue in the way of a good implementation that compliments the gameplay elements in a way that is much better than our first pass prototype.

I mean there's a lot of other issues with AR and dogs overall feel like a small issue compared to other issues, but are already fun factor as they are quite unique in regards to gameplay.

[OWA]

Just now, VERTi60 said:

I mean there's a lot of other issues with AR and dogs overall feel like a small issue compared to other issues, but are already fun factor as they are quite unique in regards to gameplay.

I'd disagree on their uniqueness. Granted that the art is different, but under the hood they are mechanically the same as any other melee unit in any other W3D game, except that they are half the height and do damage over time, rather than chunks of damage like the Chameleon Spy in Reborn for example.

[VERTi60]

3 minutes ago, OWA said:

I'd disagree on their uniqueness. Granted that the art is different, but under the hood they are mechanically the same as any other melee unit in any other W3D game, except that they are half the height and do damage over time, rather than chunks of damage like the Chameleon Spy in Reborn for example.

It's really hard to compare it with a stealth infantry such as chameleon spy (and I think Cham spy's play-style is quite different), but that's just me. For me dogs are quite unique and nothing in apb, ar or rebarn feels as such.

[Coolrock]

I think it’s silly to say that the dog isn’t fun because of a lack of an attack animation, or that it is t fun to someone being attacked by one. Since when has being attacked by anything been fun for the other person?

Anyone who complained that the dogs weren’t fun were probably the ones getting killed constantly. I do agree they had too much health, but it was such a fun experience when you aren’t used to playing something of that style. 

[VERTi60]

1 minute ago, Coolrock said:

I think it’s silly to say that the dog isn’t fun because of a lack of an attack animation, or that it is t fun to someone being attacked by one. Since when has being attacked by anything been fun for the other person?

Anyone who complained that the dogs weren’t fun were probably the ones getting killed constantly. I do agree they had too much health, but it was such a fun experience when you aren’t used to playing something of that style. 

I agree I guess it's a matter of perspective and what players prefer. Dogs are also something new (relatively speaking) so perhaps it's also because of that.

[NodGuy]

Yes. I want dogs (maybe Chitzkoi too). I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how they work.

[VERTi60]

9 minutes ago, NodGuy said:

Yes. I want dogs (maybe Chitzkoi too). I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how they work.

I can imagine that one of the future troll maps would include chitzkoi as secondary anti infantry fire mode for volkov XD

[Cat]

17 hours ago, Jerad2142 said:

Dogs should be AI pets, and you should have to be a handler and lead them around 😛

I always like having a pet dog in games. If it's being AI controlled, make every Soviet player can purchase their own attack dog and can order it to hold pos or follow by interacting with it or like a simplified version of ECW's pet commands. They can be a good canine companion for rocket soldiers or shock troopers to deal with enemy infantry that comes out of a destroyed vehicle. Or tell them to stay put to defend an area so AP mines isn't the only option against intruders. They will automatically attack nearby Allied infantry (spy disguise is unaffected obviously).

If it's player controlled, barking is a must. And the ability to pounce.

Either way, the ability to purchase them is tied to the kennel. One can still buy dogs when the barracks is gone. I think they should be cheap, like $200 since they should die easily to the (free) Rifle Soldier but shouldn't die easily to pistols so rocket soldiers, snipers, spies/thieves/engineer/medic/mechanic wouldn't be powerful against them. I like how they are in Red Alert, non-combat classes and rocket soldiers are helpless against them, riflemen kill them easily and Tanya can easily kill them or the other way around if the Tanya player doesn't hit them (depends on how you can accurately left-click on the dog).

[GraYaSDF]

23 hours ago, Jerad2142 said:

this one was by Kavkling

Possibly, because there were several designers who also suggested their ideas, and one idea was better than another sometimes. I only say what I know from one of the former developers, I interviewed him in far past.

[GraYaSDF]

Btw, a dog of KatzSmile was very realistic. I cannot find that photo, unfortunately. The new model... hmm, looks like... doge, not shepherd.  

[Mojoman]

Bark spam or no doggy.

The only logical thing to do for skins is to have them all be members of the Paw Patrol.

[Nodlied]

Dogs as they are implemented right now are unfit for gameplay. Which is why we're doing our best to develop new versions of the dog.

It is true, as Verti and Coolrock put it, that the dog is extremely fun. At least for the first few games. You can run around, woof, and bark at enemies and kill them. But after a while, you discover that they are not as fun as one might first believe. This engine has real trouble when it comes to melee weapons. The dog has had a few internal balance changes already, but one of the changes fixed the issue with the unit.

Currently, a dog either dies (unlikely to happen due to its deserved speed and its size) before it can get to you, or a dog closes in (which is usually the case) and initiates phase two. Phase two of dog gameplay is to bite the enemy infantry to death. However, due to the way infantry units and melee weapons are handled, both players will start jumping around to evade either the bite or the bullets. This results in a knife fight where players jump around while the dog spam clicks the attack button while the infantry unit sprays and prays. This is, after a few times, generally considered to be unfun and most feedback supports this. Even then, most times, the dog outright wins (which should be ok in many situations).

However, that is not all. The initial version of the dog didn't have an AOW attack. Rather, it had a specific point where the bite would land. This caused issues with units such as the GI and Guardian GI, which can deploy and, when possitioned correctly, be became invulnerable to dogs, as dogs couldn't get close enough to bite. This was solved by the introduction of an AOW effect to the dog. This, in turn, meant that it was pretty much GG for any infantry the moment a dog got close, which it generally did. We lowered its damage output to see if it would balance the dog. Let's just say that it didn't. Infantry, even expensive dedicated anti-infantry ones continued to drop like flies after the dog-infantry knife fight whenever a dog was part of combat.

This, however, isn't the only issue with the dog. For example, the map RA2_DunePatrol (soon to receive a massive update, you heard it here first!) doesn't have any base defenses. There's always a player on Dune Patrol that immediately purchases a dog, which is then used to rush the enemy base with. Once there, it starts a rampage killing all infantry in the base, including ones that have just spawned. Due to its speed and attack power, the infantry generally don't stand a chance, which causes a ton of disruption and player deaths. It takes a good coordinated squad to take one down and even then dogs are capable of simply eating through all defenders inside the buildings. This is a ton of direct and indirect damage for a 200 credit unit and even low-skilled players are capable of pulling it off repeatedly. This especially has caused a lot of frustration on those that are on the receiving end. It has also become the go-to unit for clearing your base from infantry. A few GIs or a Tanya that have managed to get to the weakpoint of your warfactory? Why buy three desolators or a Boris to fight them when just one 200 credit dog can deal with the invasion without problems? 

Most feedback from the people playing the dog acknowledge that it breaks the game in its current form, and that is despite it being useless against buildings and vehicles. We are working towards introducing multiple new dog concepts that will hopefully turn the dog into a balanced and fair addition to the game. We will test all of them but the current version will be shelved.